Pick a favorite movie or album. Hold in your mind. Now think of the artist you admire facing a slew of criminal charges or finding out they support harmful policies that directly harm you or your community. It can be crushing and confusing.
We are finding out a lot more about our idols in real time these days. It is much easier for an audio clip, long held secret, or even old court documents to come to light. Add to that, we are a “call out” society that will expose someone for even questionable behavior to be critiqued and corrected. Punishment (both material and social) are levied, and rightly so.
We also have the ability to craft a shifting narrative about who this person is and how that affects the art. To be sure, people are not one thing, they are many, but what do you do with the memory of someone who is no longer a person to admire?
When we don’t face the truth of who someone is, we don’t learn what to forgive or we excuse bad behavior or even bury it, pretending it did not happen. We might blame victims for ruining the fantasy of the artist we think we know. So I ask:
Is it possible to maintain a legacy and still tell the truth?
How much do we throw away?
Is the real problem the idea of idolatry to begin with?
Coincidence: I saw this post yesterday and 'liked' it. It's an absolutely fascinating topic.
Hahaha, so just today I clicked on a Substack whose author is clearly VERY 'personality' oriented. One post attacked public figures (active in social/political issues); then another post adored others, one of whom I often happen to know more about than other people (because of geography).
I like the famous guy in a number of ways and have followed his work for a long time. BUT I dislike him being adored as a one-dimensional hero; because I know that some of his mistakes have led OTHERS to physical injury and even death (not his 'fault'!). (His own blindness almost killed him once, but he somehow survived and emerged with no growth in awareness.)
He sets himself up as an expert without any awareness of his own blindness. People follow him of their own volition; they never research for themselves. I listed verifiable facts about this very public, very outspoken guy that contradict his image in the eyes of fans.
Within seconds, I was summarily attacked in every possible way by the Substacker. The Substacker went nuts. Substacker defended the idol and attacked me repeatedly. I took a few civil shots back and left (I had never seen their Substack before; I only found it because they 'liked' my comments elsewhere).
I was immediately reminded of your post. I delivered unwanted facts about an adored hero; and as a messenger I was shot. Other times when I delivered the same information I've been met with, "Really? I didn't know," so you never know. But in this case, the idolatry and hero-worship was too strong. They did NOT WANT to know.
I have no morale to deliver. Simply a funny turn of events. Famous guy is blind to his errors; followers crave heroes; and nobody ever wants their fantasy bubble burst.
Thank you for your topic and your space. I hope you have a great weekend. :-)
Thank you so much for this very thoughtful comment. It’s interesting because I wonder whether or not people will accept the fallibility, frailty, or downright criminality of their idols if given hard evidence. It’s probably more of what you experienced: vociferous defense. The statues will still stand. Makes me see why we take so long to topple statues. Identifies are tied up tightly with influential people, such that dismantling them feels like personal destruction.
I told you it's an amazing topic! Hope you don't mind me coming to back with a final thought. The person's reaction was so unhinged that I ended up thinking about it, and putting it in the larger contexts we're living through.
In my exchange yesterday, the hero-worshipper COULD NOT consider the hero's fallibility, so they tore ME apart like a rabid dog. Their investment and identification is too deep. So nobody discussed, and nobody learned. Nobody resolved anything from the issues raised.
My takeaway is that toppling and censoring and cancelling can never be the response. It just continues an unhinged cycle. Nothing gets resolved. Everything remains polarized.
If we're talking crimes of a living person, then of course justice needs to be sought (keeping in mind that the public's hunger for "justice" after a fall can never be sated).
But short of crime, cancelling/toppling/censoring only hardens belief. Nobody learns and grows. All opportunities for communication and growth are destroyed.
Hero dead or hero alive, the only evolved response is actually communication and discussion. As usual, nothing is black or white: everything grey. Could we stop placing so much of ourselves in strangers? Stop creating these 'influential people'? I think that's my personal goal.
Sorry to bug you on your site. Couldn't help it. We're living through all this, so here we are. I'll shut up now. All your readers had great responses, and your answers are wise and measured. GREAT TOPIC. Take good care!
No trouble at all. Happy to have discussion about this as we cannot simply throw things away. It’s worth resolving the way we feel and how we deal with upheaval in the image of who we admire. We’re going to keep running across this in small and large ways.
Thanks for stopping by. Come back for the next one. 🙂
Chevanne, this is a true article; they are all kinds of mixed feelings, when we placed that person in our heart. We all are Imperfect. Repentance is the beginning to a change Heart. SO. I throw away the bad (cause if it's a crime they will get punish) and hold to the good and let the one who Created us all handle the rest. Love to read more from you. ❤️❤️
That’s a decision that I think brings out the most peace. We’re not the ones to punish people and if there is good, how do we cherish it and tell the truth? It’s hard. Every circumstance is different.
This was such a good prompt for contemplation. I tend to agree with Alicia’s comment, and reckon that it’s super nuanced and subjective as to what behavior is forgivable. This also made me think about those celebrities who’ve cemented themselves as national (sometimes global) treasures, like Dolly Parton or Betty White. Sometimes it seems like the public looks for behavioral discrepancies in certain people over others, like no one questions the goodness of some celebs when they could be just as shitty as those we put under a microscope. I guess it comes back to whether one’s legacy is honest, like you said!
Thanks! That scrutiny sometimes drives bad perceptions, too. Being so desired and feeling like you don’t belong to yourself can bring out the worst in you. Being belittled then being shamed when you lash out creates this cycle where you can’t own your story.
I think idolatry is where the problem starts as you suggest. We crave the idea that there is someone who has somehow made it, risen above the rest. When their humanity is exposed, it reminds us of our own. When we know too much about an artist or writer we admire, I think it can affect how we view their art.
It’s helpful to always know someone is human and take them as they are or leave them. Some of what people do we can shrug off. Others might lead you to disengage from that person altogether.
Was just talking about this. A friend and I were discussing When Harry Met Sally and I mentioned Woody Allen's film Annie Hall as a forerunner. She said she would never watch his work or say his name. I do sometimes wish I didn't know about the transgressions artists make (that we all make) because I can never look at the work in the same light or hold the person in the same regard. I'm still not over the fact that I cannot enjoy the Cosby Show anymore.
We underestimate how tied we are to stories, images, and the people who produce them. Sometimes it’s easy to sever ties. Bill Maher dressed up as a dead Steve Irwin not long after Irwin died and I haven’t messed with Maher since. I’d say that’s a relatively low level offense, but at the time, I found it completely beyond the pale.
Yeah, their transgressions are definitely poisonous. I know someone who taught me a lot but they’re an offender. I’ve been letting him fade away. I’ve turned the page.
Difficult questions. No matter his weaknesses, the idolatry for someone like Michael Jackson persists. It doesn't really matter whether I'm wrong or right.
Very true. I remember making so many excuses for Michael and rationalizing things. We do have the power though to understand a person’s impact, appreciate what they’ve done, and still identify behaviors that were wrong.
If I begin to idolize you, Chev, will skeletons suddenly pop out? 🤫😏🚪
It sure seems possible to maintain an honest legacy, but who wants to? I don't know. People like fables, cautionary tales, and rise and fall stories. But they also seem to hate change and ambiguity. It's a mess.
Was this a general musing, or did you recently learn something about someone you dig?
I’ve thought about it for a while. Jeffrey Tambor, Kevin Spacey, and even Neil DeGrasse Tyson. It’s generally thinking about how we will remember these people and interrogating our own participation in protecting people who do wrong. Now, Tyson I would say was a bit touchy but the lesson was “don’t touch my tattoos” for at least one of them. Spacey, though, is getting brought up on charges in the UK. It’s crazy. How long did he prowl before it came to light?
I tend to lean toward #3: the real problem is the idea of idolatry to begin with. Human beings are such fragile, complex, imperfect creatures. For whatever reason, I tend to instinctively want to protect a person who is facing a public reckoning. I've been doing a lot of introspection recently re: why that is. I don't believe it's because I condone someone's mistakes or resent a narrative shifting. But I do think I think I identify more with human fallibility and shortcomings than I do with a desire for vengeance -- which is what "call out" culture, especially from people who are not directly involved in a particular situation, can sometimes feel like. But I recognize and respect that healing/justice can look and feel like different things for different people.
Absolutely. I feel sometimes we tie a bit of ourselves to the individual as well and want to protect what investment we’ve made in them. Might feel like a part of you is on trial!
But I also think we need to talk about what we do going forward. Do we put their work in an attic? Do we demolish the memory? It would have to depend on the offense. Human frailty is definitely a category to file under “let’s atone and accept forgiveness”. Other offenses are not like that.
100% agree with this. I like to give the benefit of the doubt up until the point where it stops making sense. Most people think they can imagine what it's like to be in the spotlight, but they really have no idea. My sister-in-law's brother is a hugely popular actor in Japan. I've heard stories and I imagine his are tame compared to a lot of A-listers in America.
Chevanne,
Coincidence: I saw this post yesterday and 'liked' it. It's an absolutely fascinating topic.
Hahaha, so just today I clicked on a Substack whose author is clearly VERY 'personality' oriented. One post attacked public figures (active in social/political issues); then another post adored others, one of whom I often happen to know more about than other people (because of geography).
I like the famous guy in a number of ways and have followed his work for a long time. BUT I dislike him being adored as a one-dimensional hero; because I know that some of his mistakes have led OTHERS to physical injury and even death (not his 'fault'!). (His own blindness almost killed him once, but he somehow survived and emerged with no growth in awareness.)
He sets himself up as an expert without any awareness of his own blindness. People follow him of their own volition; they never research for themselves. I listed verifiable facts about this very public, very outspoken guy that contradict his image in the eyes of fans.
Within seconds, I was summarily attacked in every possible way by the Substacker. The Substacker went nuts. Substacker defended the idol and attacked me repeatedly. I took a few civil shots back and left (I had never seen their Substack before; I only found it because they 'liked' my comments elsewhere).
I was immediately reminded of your post. I delivered unwanted facts about an adored hero; and as a messenger I was shot. Other times when I delivered the same information I've been met with, "Really? I didn't know," so you never know. But in this case, the idolatry and hero-worship was too strong. They did NOT WANT to know.
I have no morale to deliver. Simply a funny turn of events. Famous guy is blind to his errors; followers crave heroes; and nobody ever wants their fantasy bubble burst.
Thank you for your topic and your space. I hope you have a great weekend. :-)
Thank you so much for this very thoughtful comment. It’s interesting because I wonder whether or not people will accept the fallibility, frailty, or downright criminality of their idols if given hard evidence. It’s probably more of what you experienced: vociferous defense. The statues will still stand. Makes me see why we take so long to topple statues. Identifies are tied up tightly with influential people, such that dismantling them feels like personal destruction.
Hey Chevanne,
I told you it's an amazing topic! Hope you don't mind me coming to back with a final thought. The person's reaction was so unhinged that I ended up thinking about it, and putting it in the larger contexts we're living through.
In my exchange yesterday, the hero-worshipper COULD NOT consider the hero's fallibility, so they tore ME apart like a rabid dog. Their investment and identification is too deep. So nobody discussed, and nobody learned. Nobody resolved anything from the issues raised.
My takeaway is that toppling and censoring and cancelling can never be the response. It just continues an unhinged cycle. Nothing gets resolved. Everything remains polarized.
If we're talking crimes of a living person, then of course justice needs to be sought (keeping in mind that the public's hunger for "justice" after a fall can never be sated).
But short of crime, cancelling/toppling/censoring only hardens belief. Nobody learns and grows. All opportunities for communication and growth are destroyed.
Hero dead or hero alive, the only evolved response is actually communication and discussion. As usual, nothing is black or white: everything grey. Could we stop placing so much of ourselves in strangers? Stop creating these 'influential people'? I think that's my personal goal.
Sorry to bug you on your site. Couldn't help it. We're living through all this, so here we are. I'll shut up now. All your readers had great responses, and your answers are wise and measured. GREAT TOPIC. Take good care!
No trouble at all. Happy to have discussion about this as we cannot simply throw things away. It’s worth resolving the way we feel and how we deal with upheaval in the image of who we admire. We’re going to keep running across this in small and large ways.
Thanks for stopping by. Come back for the next one. 🙂
Chevanne, this is a true article; they are all kinds of mixed feelings, when we placed that person in our heart. We all are Imperfect. Repentance is the beginning to a change Heart. SO. I throw away the bad (cause if it's a crime they will get punish) and hold to the good and let the one who Created us all handle the rest. Love to read more from you. ❤️❤️
That’s a decision that I think brings out the most peace. We’re not the ones to punish people and if there is good, how do we cherish it and tell the truth? It’s hard. Every circumstance is different.
This was such a good prompt for contemplation. I tend to agree with Alicia’s comment, and reckon that it’s super nuanced and subjective as to what behavior is forgivable. This also made me think about those celebrities who’ve cemented themselves as national (sometimes global) treasures, like Dolly Parton or Betty White. Sometimes it seems like the public looks for behavioral discrepancies in certain people over others, like no one questions the goodness of some celebs when they could be just as shitty as those we put under a microscope. I guess it comes back to whether one’s legacy is honest, like you said!
Thanks! That scrutiny sometimes drives bad perceptions, too. Being so desired and feeling like you don’t belong to yourself can bring out the worst in you. Being belittled then being shamed when you lash out creates this cycle where you can’t own your story.
I think idolatry is where the problem starts as you suggest. We crave the idea that there is someone who has somehow made it, risen above the rest. When their humanity is exposed, it reminds us of our own. When we know too much about an artist or writer we admire, I think it can affect how we view their art.
It’s helpful to always know someone is human and take them as they are or leave them. Some of what people do we can shrug off. Others might lead you to disengage from that person altogether.
Was just talking about this. A friend and I were discussing When Harry Met Sally and I mentioned Woody Allen's film Annie Hall as a forerunner. She said she would never watch his work or say his name. I do sometimes wish I didn't know about the transgressions artists make (that we all make) because I can never look at the work in the same light or hold the person in the same regard. I'm still not over the fact that I cannot enjoy the Cosby Show anymore.
We underestimate how tied we are to stories, images, and the people who produce them. Sometimes it’s easy to sever ties. Bill Maher dressed up as a dead Steve Irwin not long after Irwin died and I haven’t messed with Maher since. I’d say that’s a relatively low level offense, but at the time, I found it completely beyond the pale.
Yeah, their transgressions are definitely poisonous. I know someone who taught me a lot but they’re an offender. I’ve been letting him fade away. I’ve turned the page.
Difficult questions. No matter his weaknesses, the idolatry for someone like Michael Jackson persists. It doesn't really matter whether I'm wrong or right.
Very true. I remember making so many excuses for Michael and rationalizing things. We do have the power though to understand a person’s impact, appreciate what they’ve done, and still identify behaviors that were wrong.
I’d lean toward #3. We hold artists/celebrities to an ideal while forgetting that they’re human.
Yes. We also forget they don’t always want to be our idols. They are sharing a gift and we’re the ones who put them on the pedestal.
If I begin to idolize you, Chev, will skeletons suddenly pop out? 🤫😏🚪
It sure seems possible to maintain an honest legacy, but who wants to? I don't know. People like fables, cautionary tales, and rise and fall stories. But they also seem to hate change and ambiguity. It's a mess.
Was this a general musing, or did you recently learn something about someone you dig?
My skeletons are mainly for Halloween. Sorry.
I’ve thought about it for a while. Jeffrey Tambor, Kevin Spacey, and even Neil DeGrasse Tyson. It’s generally thinking about how we will remember these people and interrogating our own participation in protecting people who do wrong. Now, Tyson I would say was a bit touchy but the lesson was “don’t touch my tattoos” for at least one of them. Spacey, though, is getting brought up on charges in the UK. It’s crazy. How long did he prowl before it came to light?
I tend to lean toward #3: the real problem is the idea of idolatry to begin with. Human beings are such fragile, complex, imperfect creatures. For whatever reason, I tend to instinctively want to protect a person who is facing a public reckoning. I've been doing a lot of introspection recently re: why that is. I don't believe it's because I condone someone's mistakes or resent a narrative shifting. But I do think I think I identify more with human fallibility and shortcomings than I do with a desire for vengeance -- which is what "call out" culture, especially from people who are not directly involved in a particular situation, can sometimes feel like. But I recognize and respect that healing/justice can look and feel like different things for different people.
Absolutely. I feel sometimes we tie a bit of ourselves to the individual as well and want to protect what investment we’ve made in them. Might feel like a part of you is on trial!
But I also think we need to talk about what we do going forward. Do we put their work in an attic? Do we demolish the memory? It would have to depend on the offense. Human frailty is definitely a category to file under “let’s atone and accept forgiveness”. Other offenses are not like that.
100% agree with this. I like to give the benefit of the doubt up until the point where it stops making sense. Most people think they can imagine what it's like to be in the spotlight, but they really have no idea. My sister-in-law's brother is a hugely popular actor in Japan. I've heard stories and I imagine his are tame compared to a lot of A-listers in America.